Wobble woes!

[jeepguru]

@jeepguru , I'm interested in your thoughts on the PSC kits. I'm trying to decide between, keeping the stock electric pump and adding the Apex booster, replacing the electric pump with a PSC electric pump, or changing to the PSC kit with the belt driven pump.

I'm also debating between the new Apex through shaft kit and the PSC ram setups.

Any experience/opinions you can share?

Yes, IMO, I would replace everything with PSC as it was all designed together. If you leave the stock pump but add APEX, it still isn't the system PSC designed. Not saying it won't work, but when you have issues, 1st thing pointed to could potentially be the pump. Now if you're ok doing the labor yourself, I would possibly keep the stock pump with APEX and see how it does. Then just change it out later to PSC if you have issues. But if you're paying for labor, I wouldn't do it twice, just go PSC from the start. We have more issues with the PSC lines than anything, so you'll probably be chasing those gremlins more as well as small leaks from the box itself.

As for the APEX through shaft kit, if I had or planned to keep my stock D44, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Based on the videos and feedback I've read, it's a great set up. Plus the cost is that much less than PSC and could potentially provide all the steering control you'll need. I also really like how they thought out the line placement along the axle and up the driver's side. Unfortunately for me, the kit isn't compatible with aftermarket axles because of the way they force you to mount it where the OEM stabilizer used to reside. It would take too much modification to try and make it work on a D60 or something non-OEM.

Dave

 

[Socal_392]

Yes, you're definitely a candidate for a 1 degree camber shim on both sides. If we saw this spec in the shop, that's the 1st thing we'd do along with an inspection (which sounds like you may have already done).

Dave

Thx. Is that what’s causing the loose feeling? Or is that more likely the odd difference in toe out between sides?

 

[jeepguru]

Thx. Is that what’s causing the loose feeling? Or is that more likely the odd difference in toe out between sides?

Camber can definitely influence feeling loose or flighty. I can't see what the toe AFTER spec was in your image, can you share?

 

[Socal_392]

Camber can definitely influence feeling loose or flighty. I can't see what the toe AFTER spec was in your image, can you share?

It’s the same, I just had the shop give me a readout so I can DIY any adjustments.

 

[guruman]

Looking into the Apex through shaft kit, it seems they offer two versions.... one is marked as "high mount", but there does not seem to be any indication of what that means, or the implications of choosing the high mount version (other than mentioning that non-XR models will require 2 inch bumpstops)

 

[redbeard719]

Looking into the Apex through shaft kit, it seems they offer two versions.... one is marked as "high mount", but there does not seem to be any indication of what that means, or the implications of choosing the high mount version (other than mentioning that non-XR models will require 2 inch bumpstops)

I was looking at the installed photos from both kits. Appears to me that the high mount kit puts the ram assist above the tie rod. The standard kit keeps the ram in the same location as the OEM steering stabilizer, based on the photos.

This seems like the option I'd take as well. I don't have any plans to jump to larger axles nor anything larger than 37" tires.

 

[guruman]

I was looking at the installed photos from both kits. Appears to me that the high mount kit puts the ram assist above the tie rod. The standard kit keeps the ram in the same location as the OEM steering stabilizer, based on the photos.

This seems like the option I'd take as well. I don't have any plans to jump to larger axles nor anything larger than 37" tires.

I came to the same conclusion and ordered the standard kit. Ince I believe my issue to maybe be with the steering box, I ordered a new OEM box that I will port with the Apex kit before installing it. Then I'll boost the OEM electric pump. This saved about 2k over buying the whole PSC kit. If I feel like I need to upgrade the box or pump in the future, I'm only out a few hundred dollars.

 

[prodriquez]

I came to the same conclusion and ordered the standard kit. Ince I believe my issue to maybe be with the steering box, I ordered a new OEM box that I will port with the Apex kit before installing it. Then I'll boost the OEM electric pump. This saved about 2k over buying the whole PSC kit. If I feel like I need to upgrade the box or pump in the future, I'm only out a few hundred dollars.

@guruman, I’ll give you my OEM box if you want to drive to Denver . I swapped it for the full PSC kit a few years back when I moved to Currie Platinums and 40’s.

 

[EBYCREEK]

I came to the same conclusion and ordered the standard kit. Ince I believe my issue to maybe be with the steering box, I ordered a new OEM box that I will port with the Apex kit before installing it. Then I'll boost the OEM electric pump. This saved about 2k over buying the whole PSC kit. If I feel like I need to upgrade the box or pump in the future, I'm only out a few hundred dollars.

I've been waiting for some reviews on the Apex system. I've come close to ordering it several times. I'm glad to see someone giving this a try. Can't wait to find out how this works out for you.

 

[EBYCREEK]

@guruman, I’ll give you my OEM box if you want to drive to Denver . I swapped it for the full PSC kit a few years back when I moved to Currie Platinums and 40’s.

I would love to have your OEM box to port which would save down time if Guruman doesn’t want it.

 

[EBYCREEK]

out

Well.... not good.

I managed to get both axle side UCA bushings replaced with Johnny Joints. The wobble is arguably worse now. The speed at which it occurs is narrower, like 55-60 mph, but when it happens it/s a bit worse than before. My running theory is that the stiffer joints now transmit more of the motion to whatever is causing it.

View attachment 49375To add insult to injury, I see that my previous efforts has cause the passenger side axle seal to leak... ugh.

I reached out to Doetsch this morning to see if I can replace just my two rod ends on the drag link.


Those two old bushing were a bear to get out. The passenger side required some creative tool modification.

View attachment 49373View attachment 49374

This was the trick to getting the new joint installed. Rock Jock expected you to completely disassemble the axle and remove the spring to hammer it in with the included tool. I'm not sure any amount of hammering would get that back in place intact. I think pressing it in was the better option, and did not require removing all the hoses, wiring and such to drop the spring out.

View attachment 49376

This is the tool listed in the Jeep repair manual. I was able to find it on EBay for about $80. I tried the ball joint press first with no luck. This tool is worth its weight in gold for doing upper axle control arm bushings.

 

[EBYCREEK]

I used my new Gyraline to get it all dialed in and the axle centered. I highly recommend it.

https://gyraline.com

Does they gyraline give you a read out of your caster, camber and toe on a printable screen or something you can e-mail. Where do you attach it for caster?

 

[guruman]

Does they gyraline give you a read out of your caster, camber and toe on a printable screen or something you can e-mail. Where do you attach it for caster?

There is no print option, but there is a screenshot function, which you could then email or print.

It uses a set of six measurements to get caster... 1 vertical and 1 horizontal at full left lock, full right lock, and straight ahead.

Here's the explainer video:

Here's the longer video that explains more:

 

[Socal_392]

There is no print option, but there is a screenshot function, which you could then email or print.

It uses a set of six measurements to get caster... 1 vertical and 1 horizontal at full left lock, full right lock, and straight ahead.

Here's the explainer video:

Here's the longer video that explains more:

Thx for sharing this find. Bought it and used it to fix my toe. I measured manually with tow plates as well just to verify and the Gyraline was spot on. Love this app and tool.

Where are you at on your wobble woes? I think I finally isolated mine and resolved. It all stemmed from a big ass hole I hit on a trail at high speed. Two tie rod ends and wheel bearings later, and finally getting the alignment right…I’m good to
Go.

 

[guruman]

Thx for sharing this find. Bought it and used it to fix my toe. I measured manually with tow plates as well just to verify and the Gyraline was spot on. Love this app and tool.

Where are you at on your wobble woes? I think I finally isolated mine and resolved. It all stemmed from a big ass hole I hit on a trail at high speed. Two tie rod ends and wheel bearings later, and finally getting the alignment right…I’m good to
Go.

I swapped out the drag link rod ends last week, and it was still there, but it got a lot different. It stopped transmitting through the steering wheel altogether. Weird.

I think my issue is now just the steering box. I ordered a new OEM unit along with the APEX porting and hydro assist kit. It's been stuck behind another long list of stuff that needs done before winter around here, including wrapping up some mapping of the Wagonhound Offroad Park for Onx.

Hopefully I'll add new tire mounting and balancing machines soon, allowing me to easily check balance and swap tires.

I'll report back here when I get the new steering in place.

 

[Excaliburitto]

Have you considered the YETI XD™ JL/JT DRAG LINK WITH GRIFFIN XD™ ATTENUATOR ? I can swear that since I've upgraded my steering to an all YETI setup all my steering annoyances went bye-bye.

The Griffin i think is well worth since it absorbs all vibrations.

 

[guruman]

Have you considered the YETI XD™ JL/JT DRAG LINK WITH GRIFFIN XD™ ATTENUATOR ? I can swear that since I've upgraded my steering to an all YETI setup all my steering annoyances went bye-bye.

The Griffin i think is well worth since it absorbs all vibrations.

I considered that back a year and a half ago, and ended up with the Doetsch 2.5 ton aluminum drag link and tie rod setup.

It is nice to hear a positive review of the Yeti attenuator though. I thought at the time that it might be gimmicky and not really do much, or that it might add some vagueness/slop into the steering.

I'm reasonably sure at this point, the steering box is my remaining problem, since I've literally replaced everything else.

 

[Excaliburitto]

I thought at the time that it might be gimmicky and not really do much, or that it might add some vagueness/slop into the steering.

It's actually meant to absorb micro-vibrations, I'd estimate smaller than .5" movements, and it works great for that. It's doesn't make the steering any more aloof than normal - it actually cleans it up.

Think it as a Dolby Noise Reduction for your steering .

 

[Socal_392]

It's actually meant to absorb micro-vibrations, I'd estimate smaller than .5" movements, and it works great for that. It's doesn't make the steering any more aloof than normal - it actually cleans it up.

Think it as a Dolby Noise Reduction for your steering .

I have it on mine and can confirm it reduces minor feedback. I'm not 100% sold that it's worth the extra $$ but it does make a minor difference. Paired with hydro assist, it's like driving a BMW...



...A lifted BMW with shitty driving dynamics on oversized tires lol.


Technically speaking, by design it makes the steering less responsive. But it's not noticeable.

 

[Excaliburitto]

I have it on mine and can confirm it reduces minor feedback. I'm not 100% sold that it's worth the extra $$ but it does make a minor difference. Paired with hydro assist, it's like driving a BMW...



...A lifted BMW with shitty driving dynamics on oversized tires lol.


Technically speaking, by design it makes the steering less responsive. But it's not noticeable.

Since BMW moved to all "drive by wire" I'd say the Jeep is actually more responsive ... technically .