Wobble woes!

[guruman]

It's definitely not gone. I can still visibly see the steering wheel shake a bit between 56-60 MPH.

Hey @jeepguru, maybe my friends at Doetsch can sell me a replacement set of drag link ends for my 2.5 ton steering setup? Make a suggestion a replacement trackbar? And provide recommendations for hydro assist?

I hate wobble.

 

[Earl 392]

Folks,

I'm looking for ideas.

I'm chasing a slight wobble in the front end. It's about the same frequency as the dreaded death wobble, but it's being subdued by the stabilizer, or just has not progressed to its full violence.

I Just swapped out the ball joints for some American Iron deletes, but it had no real effect. Prior to that I, swapped in the 2.5 ton steering setup from Doetch, and while I was at it I dropped in a new Teraflex adjustable track bar. I had already installed a steering box brace with the shaft bearing, and track bar mount reinforcement, and a reinforced axle side track bar bracket.

Just now, after noticing the bit of wobble at speed, I swapped in new Mopar lower control arms, which, likewise, had no effect.

I just went through it soup to nuts, and checked and tightened everything..... I readjusted the track bar to move the axle towards the passenger side about 1/2 an inch, then redid the alignment and centered the steering wheel again. Double and triple checked the rod ends, the trackbar bolts, the steering box bolts, both upper and lower control arm bolts. I even rotated the tires, thinking it might be a broken belt in the front or something. The only thing I see is that the Falcon stabilizer, at the axle side, has a ball mount that does rotate pretty freely, but does not seem to have and linear play in it. (but I was able to run last summer for a few days with it removed completely).

But still I have the slightest touch of wobble beginning at around 60mph. I'm about out of stuff to replace. I'm ordering new unit bearings, and upper control arms just to cover my bases, but then that's it, I kind of don't know what else to check/replace.

I'm fishing for some out-of-the-box ideas....

What is your toein measurement. When I changed my tie rod I got death wobble crossing a bridge joint so I decreased toe in from 1/4 inch to 1/8 inch problem solved .some have reported zero toe in and even negative toe in which would be toe out. There is a good video out there covering this. You can find a link on this forum or search utube . It’s a small shop the guy has his daughter working with him. He talks about toe in measurements

 

[jeepguru]

It's definitely not gone. I can still visibly see the steering wheel shake a bit between 56-60 MPH.

Hey @jeepguru, maybe my friends at Doetsch can sell me a replacement set of drag link ends for my 2.5 ton steering setup? Make a suggestion a replacement trackbar? And provide recommendations for hydro assist?

I hate wobble.

This is so hard to diagnose without seeing it. Does the alignment sheet show camber being off at all or are you able to put an angle finder against it to check?

Your rod ends shouldn't be shot yet, especially on the new tie rod we just sent, unless the wobbles we re so bad its just been destroying parts? For trackbars we use either the TeraFlex or the Steer Smarts Yeti bar, both are forged and take a lot to break. For hydro assist, the PSC kit is the leader but we pair it with the @nextDan Next Venture Motorsports hydro axle mount bracket.

 

[guruman]

This is so hard to diagnose without seeing it. Does the alignment sheet show camber being off at all or are you able to put an angle finder against it to check?

Your rod ends shouldn't be shot yet, especially on the new tie rod we just sent, unless the wobbles we re so bad its just been destroying parts? For trackbars we use either the TeraFlex or the Steer Smarts Yeti bar, both are forged and take a lot to break. For hydro assist, the PSC kit is the leader but we pair it with the @nextDan Next Venture Motorsports hydro axle mount bracket.

The drag link has been in place for a year or so now, and it's seen over 10k of offroad miles, and another 10k or so on road.

Admittedly, I'm grasping at straws.

It's odd to me how nothing seems to affect it, I've replaced the tie rod, stabilizer, track bar, ball joints, unit bearings, lower CAs, and added the SteerSmarts box reinforcement, and an axle side trackbar mount/brace.

Literally the only thing left, is the upper CAs (here now, soon to be dropped in), the drag link, and the steering box. I'm happy to buy new drag link ends, and keep the old ones for spares.

I keep coming back to the trackbar, as it accounts for a large percentage of these issues, and the wobble "feels" more side to side than up and down if that makes sense.

I'll double check the camber with my Gyraline, but without something being loose, even out-of-camber/toe/caster might pull, but shouldn't be wobbling.

 

[guruman]

I pulled the inner fender and made an adjustment to the steering gear lash. IT may be a little on the tight side now, but it had a positive effect. Still not zero, but better.

 

[guruman]

So, I'm still chasing a bit of the wobble.... I did find this weekend that the speed range of the wobble changes with tire pressure. At 35 psi I get the wobble from 55-60, but at 30 psi it's greatest between 50-55. Not sure that means anything though.

One of the few remaining pieces I've not replaced is the axle housing upper control arm bushings. So, I ordered a set of these Johnny Joints from RockJock to replace the weak rubber stock UCA bushings.

https://www.rockjock4x4.com/RJ-301000-103

Of course, as soon as I order these, I find some others for half the price:

https://www.ironrockoffroad.com/product/upper-control-arm-flex-joint-8-bolt-12-cartridge.html

And they offer them in 10mm, 12mm, and 1/2 inch bolt sizes...

 

[Socal_392]

So, I'm still chasing a bit of the wobble.... I did find this weekend that the speed range of the wobble changes with tire pressure. At 35 psi I get the wobble from 55-60, but at 30 psi it's greatest between 50-55. Not sure that means anything though.

One of the few remaining pieces I've not replaced is the axle housing upper control arm bushings. So, I ordered a set of these Johnny Joints from RockJock to replace the weak rubber stock UCA bushings.

https://www.rockjock4x4.com/RJ-301000-103

Of course, as soon as I order these, I find some others for half the price:

https://www.ironrockoffroad.com/product/upper-control-arm-flex-joint-8-bolt-12-cartridge.html

And they offer them in 10mm, 12mm, and 1/2 inch bolt sizes...

which track bar do you have?

For what it’s worth, I just had to replace the poly bushings in my Steersmarts track bar after I noticed a tiny bit of movement at the axle side. TB was less than a year old and my local mechanic said SS had a run of shitty poly bushings . I think it’s probable from a huge hole I hit offroad going 60+.

I have also been chasing some side to side wobbles. Definitely felt like axle shifting and causing some bump steer and side to side body movement on the highway. I did this fix yesterday so jury’s still out.

 

[guruman]

which track bar do you have?

For what it’s worth, I just had to replace the poly bushings in my Steersmarts track bar after I noticed a tiny bit of movement at the axle side. TB was less than a year old and my local mechanic said SS had a run of shitty poly bushings . I think it’s probable from a huge hole I hit offroad going 60+.

I have also been chasing some side to side wobbles. Definitely felt like axle shifting and causing some bump steer and side to side body movement on the highway. I did this fix yesterday so jury’s still out.

I dropped in a new Teraflex track bar about 6 weeks ago in response to the bit of wobble I noticed. It had zero effect as far as I can tell.

I'm about halfway through getting the axle side upper control arm bushings installed. Those suckers are persistently stuck in there. I was able to get the passenger side out using the supplied tools and an air chisel with the cutting edge sliced off with a grinder. Eventually it slid out.

The drives side was more persistent, despite having less engagement between the housing and the bushing. The air chisel just would not make it move at all. And the Rockjock supplied tool could use some improvement.

The driver side bushing sits just outboard of the diff centerline, putting the diff solidly in the way of hitting the tool with a hammer. Couple that with the fact that the tool has to be held in place, and it becomes tricky. I was not able to reach around the outside of the diff to hold the tool and see to hit it with the hammer. Plus, even when I could hit it, the diff interfered with getting good swings and impacts. The tool could be improved tremendously by drilling a through hole such that a bolt could be ran through the bushing and the tool, thusly holding the tool securely in place for aforementioned smacking with a hammer.

I was able, however, to use some fabric harness tape, to secure a 33MM deep impact socket directly to the tool, effectively extending it by over 3 inches. This allowed me to hold it with my left hand around the outboard side of the diff, and see the end of the socket, which was now in a better place to strike.

168 blows from a 16 oz Billings ball-peen, and it's out.

I used my ball joint press and some of its adapters to press in the passenger side, which took a LOT of force. I just have to press in the drivers side then drop in the new arms. I did have to enlarge the holes I the arm to get the new bolt though. After test fitting the new RockJock arms, I opted to install the Freedom Off-road ones. The Rock Jock arms were designed for more lift than I actually have. The arms are straight, and look to come close to contacting the frame brackets on the passenger side. The Freedom arms have a bend in them, which provided ever so slightly more clearance in that area.

FWIW, I think the Iron Rock Offroad tool looks to be the better option for getting them out and back in.

I'll report back on my findings after I get to drive it a bit.

 

[guruman]

Well.... not good.

I managed to get both axle side UCA bushings replaced with Johnny Joints. The wobble is arguably worse now. The speed at which it occurs is narrower, like 55-60 mph, but when it happens it/s a bit worse than before. My running theory is that the stiffer joints now transmit more of the motion to whatever is causing it.

To add insult to injury, I see that my previous efforts has cause the passenger side axle seal to leak... ugh.

I reached out to Doetsch this morning to see if I can replace just my two rod ends on the drag link.


Those two old bushing were a bear to get out. The passenger side required some creative tool modification.

This was the trick to getting the new joint installed. Rock Jock expected you to completely disassemble the axle and remove the spring to hammer it in with the included tool. I'm not sure any amount of hammering would get that back in place intact. I think pressing it in was the better option, and did not require removing all the hoses, wiring and such to drop the spring out.

 

[guruman]

I see that Iron Rock Offroad makes a trackbar with flex joints instead of rubber bushings...

https://www.ironrockoffroad.com/product/jljt-front-adjustable-track-bar-kit.html

 

[Socal_392]

Man, I empathize with your struggles @guruman

I would've called my jeep guy at this point and dropped it off with a blank check and told him not to return it until it was fkn perfect

which i'm literally about to do as replacing the bushing in my steersmarts trackball did make a difference but there's still a touch of steering shenanigans I need to get sorted out. It may be my over sensitive ass, but i'm past my wit's end.

 

[guruman]

Man, I empathize with your struggles @guruman

I would've called my jeep guy at this point and dropped it off with a blank check and told him not to return it until it was fkn perfect

which i'm literally about to do as replacing the bushing in my steersmarts trackball did make a difference but there's still a touch of steering shenanigans I need to get sorted out. It may be my over sensitive ass, but i'm past my wit's end.

Yeah, I'm not having fun anymore. It's a slight wiggle in the steering wheel, but man it's driving me crazy that I'v replaced everything in the front suspension at this point and it's still there.

I'm hoping the new track bar with the solid joints does the trick, otherwise, I guess I'm going hydro assist soon. It might still wobble, but at least I won't feel it through the steering wheel.

 

[guruman]

This is so hard to diagnose without seeing it. Does the alignment sheet show camber being off at all or are you able to put an angle finder against it to check?

Your rod ends shouldn't be shot yet, especially on the new tie rod we just sent, unless the wobbles we re so bad its just been destroying parts? For trackbars we use either the TeraFlex or the Steer Smarts Yeti bar, both are forged and take a lot to break. For hydro assist, the PSC kit is the leader but we pair it with the @nextDan Next Venture Motorsports hydro axle mount bracket.

@jeepguru , I'm interested in your thoughts on the PSC kits. I'm trying to decide between, keeping the stock electric pump and adding the Apex booster, replacing the electric pump with a PSC electric pump, or changing to the PSC kit with the belt driven pump.

I'm also debating between the new Apex through shaft kit and the PSC ram setups.

Any experience/opinions you can share?

 

[ParadigmDawg]

@jeepguru , I'm interested in your thoughts on the PSC kits. I'm trying to decide between, keeping the stock electric pump and adding the Apex booster, replacing the electric pump with a PSC electric pump, or changing to the PSC kit with the belt driven pump.

I'm also debating between the new Apex through shaft kit and the PSC ram setups.

Any experience/opinions you can share?

If you want a great, tried-and-true system, just go with the belt-driven PSC. Mine has been perfect both on and off road.

 

[guruman]

If you want a great, tried-and-true system, just go with the belt-driven PSC. Mine has been perfect both on and off road.

I have not found anyone who has done the conversion themselves... so I'm not sure how much more effort it is to switch to the belt drive. I don't mind the electric setup, at least I've no compelling reason to swap it, especially if it's much more effort.

If the stock pump can be boosted with the Apex kit, or a bolt in pump swapped in easily, I'm not sure it's worth the effort to re-do the whole system to get the belt driven pump. But on the other hand, if the effort is the same, then maybe having the belt drive as you say is "tried and true", making it kind of a no brainer.

I figured Doetsch has done like 50 of these. Hoping they have some insight.

 

[Socal_392]

@guruman I have the stock pump with Apex boost kit, PSC steering box and PSC ram, Mounted up via the next venture bracket. Other than having to be precise on clearances with the Steersmarts track bar, this setup works great. Just had it on the rubicon with absolutely no issues turning in 4Lo and locked.

I figure once the oem electric pump goes (and it likely will) then I’ll re evaluate doing the PsC electric or doing belt driven at that time. Belt driven install looks too involved for my DIY liking. The pump install is easy on the apex kit, it’s the cooler and associated lines that are a pain in the ass.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I have not found anyone who has done the conversion themselves... so I'm not sure how much more effort it is to switch to the belt drive. I don't mind the electric setup, at least I've no compelling reason to swap it, especially if it's much more effort.

If the stock pump can be boosted with the Apex kit, or a bolt in pump swapped in easily, I'm not sure it's worth the effort to re-do the whole system to get the belt driven pump. But on the other hand, if the effort is the same, then maybe having the belt drive as you say is "tried and true", making it kind of a no brainer.

I figured Doetsch has done like 50 of these. Hoping they have some insight.

Do your research on their electric pump. PSC is down the street from me and I sat in their office chatting for a couple of hours.

 

[Socal_392]

Not to hijack this thread. But @jeepguru what do you think of these alignment specs? Dealing with a slight loose feeling and what feels like bumpsteer but only when going over road imperfections. Feels like I could a touch more toe out.

Entire Steersmarts front end is <1yr old and I just had the track bar bushings replaced. Is the camber an issue?

 

[@WhiteBronze392]

I have not found anyone who has done the conversion themselves... so I'm not sure how much more effort it is to switch to the belt drive. I don't mind the electric setup, at least I've no compelling reason to swap it, especially if it's much more effort.

If the stock pump can be boosted with the Apex kit, or a bolt in pump swapped in easily, I'm not sure it's worth the effort to re-do the whole system to get the belt driven pump. But on the other hand, if the effort is the same, then maybe having the belt drive as you say is "tried and true", making it kind of a no brainer.

I figured Doetsch has done like 50 of these. Hoping they have some insight.

I did mine myself all 3 options - Apex boast kit, PSC electric Pump then PSC belt drive so I’ve done them all

There is more effort with the belt drive for sure but the Apex boost vs PSC electric swap are basically the same effort with PSC electric pump swap being a little easier as you don’t mess with swapping pump parts and then adjusting pressure. Changing the steering box with all 3 options and the rest (cooler etc) is the same.

IMHO if you are going to do it go ahead and go full belt driven pump

 

[jeepguru]

Not to hijack this thread. But @jeepguru what do you think of these alignment specs? Dealing with a slight loose feeling and what feels like bumpsteer but only when going over road imperfections. Feels like I could a touch more toe out.

Entire Steersmarts front end is <1yr old and I just had the track bar bushings replaced. Is the camber an issue?

Yes, you're definitely a candidate for a 1 degree camber shim on both sides. If we saw this spec in the shop, that's the 1st thing we'd do along with an inspection (which sounds like you may have already done).

Dave