Stolen & Recovered 392

[Excaliburitto]

Glad you got it back OP. I hate a thief. Too bad we don’t treat car thieves like we used to treat horse thieves back in the day.

There are some car alarm styles available in South Africa that should be made legal in the rest of the world too...

 

[SunsetHill]

Wow, that's due diligence indeed!

What I take out of it is that they have great customer service! I see no reason why their electronics will fail or last any longer or shorter than a typical electronic box would. It actually has no moving parts or LCDs, so it should be quite reliable.

For me, being in a very hot climate, I actually prefer not having more li-ion batteries in my Jeep than I absolutely need, so I'm actually glad that I have the 7 model.

BTW, Model 7 has normal lithium batteries, not lithium-ion rechargeable ones.

I appreciate your appreciation. LOL.

You bring up the next concern that I was checking into at this very moment. That of lithium-ion battery fires in small devices like cellphones (and not the EV car battery fires that dominate the google hits). Even in Seattle, stashing a device inside the cabin could get warm in the summer.

I saw a picture online where the M9 was installed inside a vehicle's engine compartment. Really? Should get hot in there!

You nicely point out that the M7 uses lithium batteries, not lithium-ion. Score 1 more point for the M7. And the M9 is too new to have developed a reliability record yet.

I'm glad you posted again here.

Yes, they responded quickly. Even their auto-response email last night pointed out that they were closed but would answer the very next day.

P.S. Apparently, using lithium AA batteries for the M7 is not a requirement anyway. From their website:

Can I use Alkaline or Zinc batteries instead of recommended Lithium batteries?
Lithium batteries are more expensive than their Alkaline equivalents, but perform for a much longer lifespan. In comparison, Zinc batteries last ~ 20 times shorter, Alkaline ~ 8-10 times shorter.
Furthermore, Lithium Batteries hold on to their full voltage to almost the end of their charge life, while alkaline batteries decrease their voltage output throughout their performance.
Therefore, to have a device that works best and lasts a long time, we recommend that you only use Lithium batteries

And elsewhere on the page:

Note:
Do Not Use Alkaline AA batteries, or the battery reading level will not be accurate.
IMPORTANT: You MUST NOT use rechargeable batteries. They have different electrical parameters and we cannot guarantee Monimoto will work properly or that the correct battery level will be displayed.

WE ALSO DO NOT RECOMMEND USING DURACELL OR PANASONIC BATTERIES.

Although Duracell and Panasonic batteries are very good, due to certain physical and chemical characteristics of the batteries, the device is not able to notify the owner of possible low batteries in time.

Our recommended batteries are Energizer or Varta. Both brands are easy to find.

 

[SunsetHill]

Just get the Model 7. It's only $129 now.

The manufacturer's website does show it on sale for $129, regular $149, with 2 free months service, while they sell it through Amazon for $99 with 3 free months service. Says so right on the box in the Amazon ad.

I'm off now, to explore the Optimus 3.0 GPS tracker for $29.95 or with magnetic case for $39.95. ($29.95 with case on Amazon.) Subscription is $19.95 per month, or with a 20% discount for annual payment.

 

[Excaliburitto]

I appreciate your appreciation. LOL.

You bring up the next concern that I was checking into at this very moment. That of lithium-ion battery fires in small devices like cellphones (and not the EV car battery fires that dominate the google hits). Even in Seattle, stashing a device inside the cabin could get warm in the summer.

I saw a picture online where the M9 was installed inside a vehicle's engine compartment. Really? Should get hot in there!

You nicely point out that the M7 uses lithium batteries, not lithium-ion. Score 1 more point for the M7.

I'm glad you posted again here.

Yes, they responded quickly. Even their auto-response email last night pointed out that they were closed but would answer the very next day.

I think the li-ion in the M9 provides for a more compact packaging, pouch format vs 2xAA, but otherwise is not a plus in my Jeep's climate.

For Northern EU not an issue as much, but everywhere else ...

Putting any GPS receiver/GSM transmitter in a metal cage (like an engine compartment) is not best for many reasons, including heat. Putting a li-ion there is plain dumb.

The manufacturer's website does show it on sale for $129, regular $149, with 2 free months service, while they sell it through Amazon for $99 with 3 free months service. Says so right on the box in the Amazon ad.

I'm off now, to explore the Optimus 3.0 GPS tracker for $29.95 or with magnetic case for $39.95. ($29.95 with case on Amazon.) Subscription is $19.95 per month, or with a 20% discount for annual payment.

The due diligence must go on

$19.95 a month vs $49 a year?

Will Optimus use a phone call to alert you, or an app alarm? That for me was a decision maker, since once I added the number to my “important” list, it will bypass any snoozing state my phone might be in.

How long have they been in the business? The moment the company decides to close doors, all the tracking goes away.

 

[SunsetHill]

I think the li-ion in the M9 provides for a more compact packaging, pouch format vs 2xAA, but otherwise is not a plus in my Jeep's climate.

For Northern EU not an issue as much, but everywhere else ...

Putting any GPS receiver/GSM transmitter in a metal cage (like an engine compartment) is not best for many reasons, including heat. Putting a li-ion there is plain dumb.

The due diligence must go on

$19.95 a month vs $49 a year?

Will Optimus use a phone call to alert you, or an app alarm? That for me was a decision maker, since once I added the number to my “important” list, it will bypass any snoozing state my phone might be in.

How long have they been in the business? The moment the company decides to close doors, all the tracking goes away.

Monimoto is the only one I've seen so far that actually places a phone call to you (and then follows it with notifications). As I perused Amazon for Optimus, I saw a few other "manufacturers" there that offer the same exact device as Optimus, including the unique magnetic case, but under their brand name. So, China is making it for a number of brands. No surprise there and I see that a lot on Amazon with other products. Optimus does offer more options for their twenty bucks a month than does Monimoto but I think that is to be expected for the price of the service. The question becomes what options am I exactly looking for and how many other bells and whistles do I have to also purchase in order to get exactly what I am looking for? Optimus also lets you option to report location as frequently as 10 seconds (for no increase in fee) without being in "theft mode" whereas Monimoto reports only in Alarm mode (during unauthorized movement only, meaning fob not present) every 5 minutes and only when the car is moving or you can speed it up in Alarm mode to "every 1-2 minutes" for successive 10-minute periods of time.

So that you know I am masterful in the art of overthinking things, here is my fearful theft scenario:

I live in an urban environment. Actually, in a city neighborhood with houses everywhere but downtown is all tall buildings with scattered entrances to underground parking. Maybe not in my city, but I saw a video, I think it was New York, where car thieves quickly drove the stolen car underground for disassembly. I have learned that these GPS trackers often do not report location when even a single floor underground. A GPS thing. In our many Seattle neighborhoods, many if not most homes have their garages below street level, as part of the basement. Underground, if you will.

So, let's say I am parked in front of my house or am downtown parked on the street and my vehicle gets stolen, whether my Jeep or my Camaro. So, I turn on my tracker and see the map showing my car moving along neighborhood or downtown streets. But, say I have a tracker that reports every 5 minutes in Alarm mode. All of a sudden, it can't locate my car anymore. The map shows my car "stopped". Has it indeed stopped right there where the map shows, or have the thieves taken it underground? I mean, setting aside that they found the tracker and threw it to the side of the road, where else could they go with my car? So, judging from the last reported location, in five minutes hence the thieves could have turned into any of a number of underground parking garages in the city environment or may have ducked into a neighborhood basement garage. Five minutes is a wide radius on a map from my last known location, if you see what I mean. However, if I had a tracker that reported, say, every 10 seconds, then it would seem to me that the thieves could not get very far in 10 seconds from the last reported location (a smaller search radius) which means I (or the police?) might have fewer underground garages to consider?

I fear finding out during a theft how much of a hindrance 5-minute delays in reporting might be.

Currently I subscribe to LandAirSea's Overdrive unit where I can select from six different reporting intervals, from 3 minutes to 3 seconds, and of course their subscription fee increases accordingly the shorter the interval. Currently I am paid up with them for 10-second reporting and that comes to 20 bucks a month for paying ahead for 2 years. LandAirSea devices are made in USA (with domestic and imported parts) and the employees are US-based. The Overdrive model has a long battery life as compared to their inexpensive Model 54. It tracks all movement of my vehicle, every trip I make in it. No fob involved. It has a strong magnet for attaching it even to the underside of the vehicle, they said. Tech help was fast when I emailed with questions early on. I will note that the Overdrive unit does not report my Jeep's location when I park one floor underground at my grocery store. It will only always show the last report which is at the underground garage's entry point.

While I am locked into that product for 2 years, I can research other ideas, as I have two vehicles to think about. I am getting my Camaro cosmetically restored as we speak.

I do see the attraction in Monimoto 7. I just want to take my time to investigate my options. Monimoto is based out of Lithuania, FWIW.

 

[Excaliburitto]

Monimoto is the only one I've seen so far that actually places a phone call to you (and then follows it with notifications). As I perused Amazon for Optimus, I saw a few other "manufacturers" there that offer the same exact device as Optimus, including the unique magnetic case, but under their brand name. So, China is making it for a number of brands. No surprise there and I see that a lot on Amazon with other products. Optimus does offer more options for their twenty bucks a month than does Monimoto but I think that is to be expected for the price of the service. The question becomes what options am I exactly looking for and how many other bells and whistles do I have to also purchase in order to get exactly what I am looking for? Optimus also lets you option to report location as frequently as 10 seconds (for no increase in fee) without being in "theft mode" whereas Monimoto reports only in Alarm mode (during unauthorized movement only, meaning fob not present) every 5 minutes when the car is moving or you can speed it up in Alarm mode to "every 1-2 minutes" for successive 10-minute periods of time.

So that you know I am masterful in the art of overthinking things, here is my fearful theft scenario:

I live in an urban environment. Actually, in a city neighborhood with houses everywhere but downtown is all tall buildings with scattered entrances to underground parking. Maybe not in my city, but I saw a video, I think it was New York, where car thieves quickly drove the stolen car underground for disassembly. I have learned that these GPS trackers often do not report location when even a single floor underground. A GPS thing. In our many Seattle neighborhoods, many if not most homes have their garages below street level, as part of the basement. Underground, if you will.

So, let's say I am parked in front of my house or am downtown parked on the street and my vehicle gets stolen, whether my Jeep or my Camaro. So, I turn on my tracker and see the map showing my car moving along neighborhood or downtown streets. But, say I have a tracker that reports every 5 minutes in Alarm mode. All of a sudden, it can't locate my car anymore. The map shows my car "stopped". Has it indeed stopped right there where the map shows, or have the thieves taken it underground? I mean, where else could they go? So, judging from the last reported location, in five minutes hence the thieves could have turned into any of a number of underground parking garages in the city environment or may have ducked into a neighborhood basement garage. Five minutes is a wide radius on a map from my last known location, if you see what I mean. However, if I had a tracker that reported, say, every 10 seconds, then it would seem to me that the thieves could not get very far in 10 seconds from the last reported location (a smaller search radius) which means I (or the police?) might have fewer underground garages to search?

I fear finding out during a theft how much of a hindrance 5-minute delays in reporting might be.

Currently I subscribe to LandAirSea's Overdrive unit where I can select from six different reporting intervals, from 3 minutes to 3 seconds, and of course their subscription fee increases accordingly the shorter the interval. Currently I am paid up with them for 10-second reporting and that comes to 20 bucks a month for paying ahead for 2 years. LandAirSea devices are made in USA (with domestic and imported parts) and the employees are US-based. The Overdrive model has a long battery life as compared to their inexpensive Model 54. It tracks all movement of my vehicle, every trip I make in it. It has a strong magnet for attaching it even to the underside of the vehicle, they said. Tech help was fast when I emailed with questions early on. I will note that the Overdrive unit does not report my Jeep's location when I park one floor underground at my grocery store.

While I have locked myself into that for 2 years, I can research other ideas, as I have two vehicles to think about. I am getting my Camaro cosmetically restored as we speak.

I do see the attraction in Monimoto 7. I just want to take my time to investigate my options. Monimoto is based out of Lithuiania, FWIW.

Lithuania is a full EU member, NATO and all, FWIW.

I for one avoid buying Chinese crap if I can avoid it. I rather pay a bit more (actually a bit less in this case if taking in the service cost) for good customer service and a Made in the EU (or USA, or UK) product.

There are some other services that provide GPS tracking and car security, but this was fine for ME, and didn't want to get into an analysis-paralysis situation, that I'm prone to do.

Seems you have lots of time to figure this out, and in the future I'm sure there will be more to come.

Starlink is anounced rolling out voice and data service with T-Mobile soon (for one year, then with other companies), so I bet that will become an even (better?) option.

 

[SunsetHill]

There are some other services that provide GPS tracking and car security, but this was fine for ME, and didn't want to get into an analysis-paralysis situation, that I'm prone to do.

I like how you put that. I've done that myself, although usually I eventually work my way through it.

I can't find a certain feature mentioned on the Minimoto website so I asked a question on Amazon and I will also ask you:

Q: Is there a way within the Monimoto app to share location with the local police? For instance, allowing them to see your map display in real time?

If users never get their vehicle stolen, they may never know until they need it that they don't have it and could be paying for a process that may be "incomplete" fall short of their expectations in an actual theft situation.

So far, I've received one response:

Not on my unit.
At least I haven’t had anyone trying to steal my motorcycle.

Thanks.

 

[Excaliburitto]

Q: Is there a way within the Monimoto app to share location with the local police? For instance, allowing them to see your map display in real time?

No. You can send tough screenshots I suppose.

If users never get their vehicle stolen, they may never know until they need it that they don't have it and could be paying for a process that may be "incomplete" in an actual theft situation.

Not sure what you mean. You can always test Monimoto by not having its key tag with you. The device should call you before your car is out of the driveway, or very shortly after. You will then be able to see your car location close to real time (every few minutes).

Also, the device sends an "Monimoto is OK" kinda message everyday to let you know battery and all is fine.

---

You stated you are in an urban environment. Get some hidden Apple Tags too in your Jeep and since you'll be around lots of wifi and iPhones you will get real-time monitoring for free.

That's what I actually do and have. Just make sure you disable the speaker on the AirTag.

 

[SunsetHill]

No. You can send tough screenshots I suppose.

Not sure what you mean. You can always test Monimoto by not having its key tag with you. The device should call you before your car is out of the driveway, or very shortly after. You will then be able to see your car location close to real time (every few minutes).

Also, the device sends an "Monimoto is OK" kinda message everyday to let you know battery and all is fine.

---

You stated you are in an urban environment. Get some hidden Apple Tags too in your Jeep and since you'll be around lots of wifi and iPhones you will get real-time monitoring for free.

That's what I actually do and have. Just make sure you disable the speaker on the AirTag.

I updated that post to replace the word "incomplete" with something better. Here's what I meant:

LoJack, I understand, is a system designed to streamline its connectivity with the police in times of theft such that those police cars that are equipped with LoJack will, I think, network similarly to the iphones in finding the stolen car. (Seattle Police has been decommissioning LoJack and maybe only one or two police cars still have it, I was told. Their new police cars do not have it.) LandAirSea will allow you to share within its app your map URL with anyone you choose, such as the police, such that they will see the same live action map that you are seeing of your stolen car moving along the streets. On mine, they will see a live update every 10 seconds which is a time interval I would desire for them and I pay more for it. I think Spytec also has that in-app sharing feature.

The point being, once your vehicle is actually stolen and you engage the police, how elegant a process will it be to get the police to see what you are seeing as quickly as possible? Or will you have to remain on the phone with the police and constantly describe in words to them what you are seeing on the map in your app?

Me, on the phone with the police, looking at my Monimoto app, telling the dispatcher: "Ok, my car's moving east on Main Street." 5 minutes later: "Ok, it says it's going north on 4th Ave crossing James Street. 5 minutes later: "Still north on 4th Ave. Wait, it may have moved to West Benning Street. Give me another 5 minutes to know."

Or, with LandAirSea I send them permission to access my app's map with it's 10-second updates and they take it from there. To me, this critical time is the most important part of having a good theft tracker. This is crunch time. So, I look to see how well each tracker product might succeed at this.

I use android, not iphone, so I'd have to use Samsung SmartTags or the Tile trackers which work with either network. I've read Tile is the superior one. To prevent unauthorized tracking of people, all are designed to be seen by anyone who knows how to go look for the presence of these tags in their vicinity using their own phone. As you advised, I understand some airtag owners disable the tiny speaker inside of it to keep it from chirping its location to a thief. As you know, these phones create a network of all same-brand phones that have opted-in to this network. My understanding is that only I will be informed by this network where my vehicle is in this network. But then what do I do about it except either try to go get it, with or without a gun, or call the cops and explain over the phone this moving vehicle of mine, assuming it won't be driven out of range of all participating cell phones. I have not seen the data on vehicles recovered using these tag devices.

 

[Excaliburitto]

I see. Somehow I doubt that any cop will go to any website to monitor where a stolen vehicle is. The LoJack system used to make its presence known to police cars that were passing by. The cops had a device in their car that was always listening to signals sent to cars that passed by in LoJack "stolen" mode. I don't know what arrangements their new system has. This made it easy and effortless for the caps to catch theft.

In the end, if somebody steals my Jeep, that's why I have insurance. A Jeep is a vehicle after-all that can be replaced. I'm not welcoming it, but I'm not going to make it (and pay for it) to become Fort Knox.

More than anything the GPS trackers are for my own peace of mind, rather than acting as a Jeep guardian. I have some other things to deter stealing my Jeep, dead switches, etc, but if somebody starts pulling out wiring and messing up with my Jeep, they can keep it. Jeeps are fragile and temperamental as they are, I'd hate to have a dealer fixing (read introducing) more electrical ghosts, etc.

At least that's my take.

 

[SunsetHill]

I can't find a certain feature mentioned on the Minimoto website so I asked a question on Amazon and I will also ask you:

Q: Is there a way within the Monimoto app to share location with the local police? For instance, allowing them to see your map display in real time?

Monimoto nicely replied to my question on Amazon:

Currently we do not have such an option to share the map display. Usually people simply share with the police the coordinates from the map, that are actualized every few minutes. That is a bit less convenient, but generally sufficient. Sharing the map might be considered when creating a new app some time in the future.

MoniMoto USA
Seller · September 2, 2024

EDIT: I just read that SmartTags are only compatible with a handful of Samsung Galaxy android phones but not other android phones, and not my Motorola Razr+ android phone.

 

[Jeepherz]

Let's just be honest here, congrats on getting the Jeep back but the thieves who stole it were amateurs. 99% of these thieves are going to disable the GPS module, cut the antenna wire and/or disable any Lojack, AirTag or other 3rd party alarm/tracking module almost immediately. Paying for the UConnect tracking subscription or Lojack is almost always going to be a waste of money and a false sense of security the vast majority of the time.

Except it worked in this case? If the alternative is nothing...thanks I'll pay for it on the off chance my thief is that 1%.

 

[SunsetHill]

I think Spytec also has that in-app sharing feature.

They do, I just confirmed, but differently than I would have assumed. I messaged them over this Labor Day weekend and received their reply today (Spytec GPS is now called Hapn, btw) which has upcoming good news about this feature important to me:

Huda (Spytec Support)

Sep 3, 2024, 09:00 EDT

Hi [Me],

Thank you for contacting Hapn support and please accept my apology for the delayed response! My name is Huda and I’ll be happy to assist further.

Yes, you can share the current location from the map. However, the link will not show real-time movements. The good news is we will introduce the "live link" within this month. That said, you can always add the police as an additional user to monitor the live movement of the tracker. Here's an article that explains - How do I manage users on my account?

Whenever you have some time to spare, watch this video to get acquainted with the Hapn GPS platform - https://youtu.be/jWYq3bApU7Y. If you like to read, please navigate to the following article to learn more about the app features in detail -I Just Activated My Tracker... What's Next?

• If you have not purchased a tracker already, feel free to visit the following link to purchase a tracker at a discounted rate from our Amazon store - https://www.amazon.com/promocode/A2ZO9NO72FE3Y7.

OR

• Please feel free to order a long-term subscription from our website and get the tracker for free - https://shop.spytec.com/collections/all-gps-trackers.

Please reply to the email if you need assistance with anything else. Alternatively, you can visit the Help Center to search for a solution. The support team operates from 8:00 AM to 8:00 PM Eastern time during weekdays and on weekends we are available from 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM Eastern time.

We highly appreciate your time and business with us.

Regards,

Huda S | Customer Support Team Lead
Hapn



So, as it stands today, I would have two choices in sharing Spytec map locations with the police or with anyone else:

1) Add them as a user which allows them to create a password-ed access to my acct but with look-see parameters that I control. That sounds like they would see the live action map.

2) Not add them as a user but send through the app a static snapshot of the live action map.

I prefer Option #1 but they also said they plan this month (September 2024) to introduce live-action access by third parties without adding them as a user. That sounds more flexible and faster to achieve that the Add User process which involves an Invite-and-Response choreography.

Spytec offers 5-second updates.

I watched the 33-minute youtube Hapn Product Demo posted 1 years ago. A full demo, it said. Gee, how often do you get to explore a tracker product in such depth and ahead of buying it? Just the first 3 minutes in the video is impressive, I think. After watching the full thing, I had no idea a tracker could be so informative, not that I will need all of that info and I am not running a business with a fleet of vehicles. More detail than I will ever need but I'll let their subscription price decide that for me. The video points out that a lot of the admin for this product is done in the web application and not in the mobile application.

Wow, when I get to the video time-point 10:22, I imagine the volume of detailed personal travel data that Big Brother is collecting and selling. An OBD tracker is used in the video, however, to capture the engine start and stop events. I don't think a battery-operated tracker could do that.

The discounted link that you see in their above response (for 10% off, expires 09/30/24) might apply to anyone who clicks on it and not just me. Dunno.

Lastly, I really can't know who in this forum is even interested in these arcane details I am uncovering about the various anti-theft products and that I continually post here, and I hope I am not annoying forum readers.

Thank you.

 

[Crust]

Glad to hear you got it back! I have had TWO Jeeps stolen here in San Diego in the last year. An XJ taken from my driveway at 9PM on a damn Monday night, and an AEV-equipped TJ, both gone with the wind. I was never able to confirm if the XJ crossed the border because the rear plate was obstructed from view. The TJ was confirmed, and the parts immediately started getting listed for sale on Marketplace out of Tijuana.

 

[Crust]

I have spent many hours considering building a bait-Jeep that locks you in and disables itself entirely with an alarm and some sort of alerting system.

 

[Jeepherz]

Glad to hear you got it back! I have had TWO Jeeps stolen here in San Diego in the last year. An XJ taken from my driveway at 9PM on a damn Monday night, and an AEV-equipped TJ, both gone with the wind. I was never able to confirm if the XJ crossed the border because the rear plate was obstructed from view. The TJ was confirmed, and the parts immediately started getting listed for sale on Marketplace out of Tijuana.

That sucks! Being so close to the border is the "con" to all that ocean air and sunshine. Did you look at any of the stand-alone trackers like above? Even an Air Tag?

 

[Mouse]

I have spent many hours considering building a bait-Jeep that locks you in and disables itself entirely with an alarm and some sort of alerting system.

It would be a good idea if the criminals weren’t just released a few hours later with a light slap on the wrist and a stern warning. Just make the bait car explode.

 

[SunsetHill]

So, I finished my research on several battery-operated GPS trackers as compared to my LandAirSea Overdrive tracker, making a spreadsheet of their features that mattered to me and noting anything that disqualified them to me. Here's the list without the details:

Brickhouse 140-Day Magnetic GPS Tracker, SparkNanoXB-BPS.
LoneStarTracking Yabby3 4G/5G Cat-M1 Battery GPS Tracker.
LoneStarTracking Oyster3 4G/5G
Monimoto 7
Monimoto 9
Optimus 3.0 GPS Tracker with Heavy Duty Waterproof Case
RecovR Vehicle Theft & Loss Recovery System
Salind GPS 20 4G
Salind 11 4G
Spacehawk 4G GPS tracker - the same USA-made device as LandAirSea Model 54, same app, same tier pricing for frequency of location reporting except the only difference I saw is that they offer 20% off for a 1-year commitment whereas LandAirSea offers 25% off.
Spytec GL300 Mini GPS Tracker w/ Magnetic Case.

I chose Spytec's GL300 which, after immersing myself in their not-skimpy online help and youtube videos, has an impressive app and I believe is better than my LandAirSea Overdrive unit which I already thought was the best battery-operated device for what I need. The GL300 can be user-set for a fast location reporting interval of 5 seconds at all times when the vehicle is in motion and not just after it vehicle is stolen, in-app sharing of the live action map at all times and, if buying a 3-year commitment, is $14.99 per month, five bucks less than my Overdrive at 10-second reporting. If the device loses GPS for any reason, it will estimate your vehicle's location using cell tower location and then display the cell tower address to you as well as how far away from that tower your vehicle is. The company is now called Hapn and, if you look at their youtube videos, these guys are invested in having a killer app and one built for fleet management. Or should I say, micro-management. In other words, they look like they are going to be around for a long time.

So, there ya go. One guy's studied opinion.