Turboencabulator's Build Updated: PPF Fixed

Turboencabulator · Mar 18, 2022

Welcome to the Turboencabulator Jeep Build thread!

My ultimate goal for this build is to be the first to locate and install a Turboencabulator in a Jeep. Think about it, the raw limitless POWER of that mighty 392 Hemi finally unleashed by a Turboencabulator.

What is a Turboencabulator you might ask?

Well, I think I’ll let my good friend Mr. Bud Haggart and the team over at Chrysler SRT shed some light on that:

Until I am able to get my grubby little hands on a MOPAR Turboencabulator, this thread will just have to chronical my journey to make our 392 into a quick, FUN, daily driver that can go anywhere, bring everyone, and make it look good in Firecracker Red.

1000th thread on the forum!

byhumba · Mar 18, 2022

Good laugh! Now I want a turbo incabulator! With gas prices the way they are, I would benefit from pulling power out of the modial interaction of magnito reluctance and capacitive directance. Such a work of art!

Guest862 · Mar 18, 2022

Turboencabulator said:
My ultimate goal for this build is to be the first to locate and install a Turboencabulator in a Jeep. Think about it, the raw limitless POWER of that mighty 392 Hemi finally unleashed by a Turboencabulator.

1000th thread on the forum!

TurboE,
I need one.
Please share the spec sheets when you have a moment.

I believe I have a line on the ambifacient lunar waneshaft that prevents side fumbling. Keep you posted.

Great post thanks. Looking forward to the build…

zmpm01 · Mar 18, 2022

I see they forgot to mention the Oscillating Vander Snatch that hook's up to the Finagin Pin to turn on the Fumagoggin that cause's the Sky Hook to fall and turn the V Door Key!

YukonCornelius · Mar 18, 2022

One. Of. The. Best. Threads. Ever!

Turboencabulator · Mar 26, 2022

First big Upgrade!

**PPF Update**

I want to share my experience deciding on paint protection options and I hope it might be helpful to others.

Even before my 392 was built I started to research how to protect it. This is by far the most expensive vehicle I have ever owned and I want to keep it looking good for a long time. I knew nothing about paint protection but two words kept coming up: Paint Protection Film (PPF) and Ceramic Coating. I wondered is PPF worth it or is it just a gimmick? And what is the difference between PPF and Ceramic Coating? Here is what I found out:

Basically PPF is a film that provides long-term physical preservation, it can be removed and replaced with the paint underneath kept in ‘new’ condition. PPF is not a gimmick. It was originally developed by 3M for the military for use on helicopter rotor blades. It forms a sacrificial layer that increased their service life. Here is a great video showing the difference PPF can make in very extreme conditions:

Ceramic coating on the other hand is a polymer designed to provide a slick, smooth, hydrophobic (water repelling) surface that stays clean and is easy to keep clean.

But here is the best part, I learned you don’t have to choose PPF or Ceramic, you can do both! You apply PPF first then Ceramic Coating over top. You get the best of both and maximize keeping your 392 looking newer for longer. That is the direction I chose to go.

With the PPF I had to make three big decisions:

Protect the front facing area or do the whole vehicle?
Which detail shop to go with?
Which PPF brand? (XPEL, STEK, 3M, Llumar, SunTek, Avrey)

1. Protect the front facing area, or do the whole vehicle?
I asked in this post for advice. Front facing area was $3014 total including, prep, PPF, ceramic, and tax. Wrapping the whole vehicle was $6327 total for prep, PPF, ceramic, and tax and included wrapping my extra set 4 half doors. From my take, applying PPF to the complete vehicle gives the maximum protection and a new car gloss on all areas. In addition as the paint fades in the elements, with all parts covered in PPF the impact would be uniform. Ultimately it came down to cost. The only reason I came up with to not PPF the whole vehicle was the cost. And it is expensive, this PPF job cost more than my current car is worth. But my 392 is not just another car, and I felt the extra benefits justified the additional cost.

2. Which detail shop to go with?
This is probably the most important decision I made. The only way I found to figure this out was to actually go and visit several PPF shops. I ended up going with a small shop (B Precise Auto Detaing) that would work with me to get the result I wanted. I chose to remove all the external parts myself so that there would be no need for seams or outlines around door handles, emblems, etc. The shop actually ended up giving me a discount for doing all the disassembly prep myself! I would have done it anyway because I want the film to be invisible. And I learned a lot about my new Jeep by taking it apart and putting it back together.

Then the shop spent a full week with my Jeep. Cleaning, DA prep polishing and fixing paint defects, then full body PPF, finally ceramic coating. Brian the owner walked me through modifying templates and deleting seams, he wrapped every edge when possible, and bulk wrapping most of the main panels (Bulk wrap is when you wrap an area with film then cut it to fit on the vehicle as opposed to using a pre-cut template piece.) Here is the process, it is a ton of work and well worth the cost.

3. Which PPF brand?
I ended up going with STEK DYNOshield. It worked out that the installer I chose was an authorized STEK installer and it carries a 10-year manufacture warranty. What I like about DYNOshield is the clarity and the hydrophobic outer layer. I watched lots of videos but this one helps show some of the differences between the film brands in a side by side comparison.

In the end even though the film brand is important, I think it’s the installer that makes the biggest difference.

I'm glad we did this while the vehicle was brand new (under 100mi). Now that it is all done I am amazed by how easy it is to keep clean, it’s like Teflon armor for my 392.

Here is a video the shop made:

(best. song. ever.)

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7078479891364285742

Big thanks to @Mrtintsd for helping me figuring this all out, thanks buddy!

hardhat · Mar 26, 2022

Very nice indeed

jandersendo · Mar 27, 2022

Turboencabulator said:
First big Upgrade!

**PPF Update**

I want to share my experience deciding on paint protection options and I hope it might be helpful to others.

Even before my 392 was built I started to research how to protect it. This is by far the most expensive vehicle I have ever owned and I want to keep it looking good for a long time. I knew nothing about paint protection but two words kept coming up: Paint Protection Film (PPF) and Ceramic Coating. I wondered is PPF worth it or is it just a gimmick? And what is the difference between PPF and Ceramic Coating? Here is what I found out:

Basically PPF is a film that provides long-term physical preservation, it can be removed and replaced with the paint underneath kept in ‘new’ condition. PPF is not a gimmick. It was originally developed by 3M for the military for use on helicopter rotor blades. It forms a sacrificial layer that increased their service life. Here is a great video showing the difference PPF can make in very extreme conditions:

Ceramic coating on the other hand is a polymer designed to provide a slick, smooth, hydrophobic (water repelling) surface that stays clean and is easy to keep clean.

But here is the best part, I learned you don’t have to choose PPF or Ceramic, you can do both! You apply PPF first then Ceramic Coating over top. You get the best of both and maximize keeping your 392 looking newer for longer. That is the direction I chose to go.

With the PPF I had to make three big decisions:

Protect the front facing area or do the whole vehicle?

Which detail shop to go with?

Which PPF brand? (XPEL, STEK, 3M, Llumar, SunTek, Avrey)

1. Protect the front facing area, or do the whole vehicle?
I asked in this post for advice. Front facing area was $3014 total including, prep, PPF, ceramic, and tax. Wrapping the whole vehicle was $6327 total for prep, PPF, ceramic, and tax and included wrapping my extra set 4 half doors. From my take, applying PPF to the complete vehicle gives the maximum protection and a new car gloss on all areas. In addition as the paint fades in the elements, with all parts covered in PPF the impact would be uniform. Ultimately it came down to cost. The only reason I came up with to not PPF the whole vehicle was the cost. And it is expensive, this PPF job cost more than my current car is worth. But my 392 is not just another car, and I felt the extra benefits justified the additional cost.

2. Which detail shop to go with?
This is probably the most important decision I made. The only way I found to figure this out was to actually go and visit several PPF shops. I ended up going with a small shop (B Precise Auto Detaing) that would work with me to get the result I wanted. I chose to remove all the external parts myself so that there would be no need for seams or outlines around door handles, emblems, etc. The shop actually ended up giving me a discount for doing all the disassembly prep myself! I would have done it anyway because I want the film to be invisible. And I learned a lot about my new Jeep by taking it apart and putting it back together. Then the shop spent a full week with my Jeep. Cleaning, DA prep polishing and fixing paint defects, then full body PPF, finally ceramic coating. Brian the owner walked me through modifying templates and deleting seams, he wrapped every edge when possible, and bulk wrapping most of the main panels (Bulk wrap is when you wrap an area with film then cut it to fit on the vehicle as opposed to using a pre-cut template piece.) Here is the process, it is a ton of work and well worth the cost.
View attachment 4033
View attachment 4034
View attachment 4035
View attachment 4036
View attachment 4037

3. Which PPF brand?
I ended up going with STEK DYNOshield. It worked out that the installer I chose was an authorized STEK installer and it carries a 10-year manufacture warranty. What I like about DYNOshield is the clarity and the hydrophobic outer layer. I watched lots of videos but this one helps show some of the differences between the film brands in a side by side comparison.

In the end even though the film brand is important, I think it’s the installer that makes the biggest difference.

View attachment 4040

I'm glad we did this while the vehicle was brand new (under 100mi). Now that it is all done I am amazed by how easy it is to keep clean, it’s like Teflon armor for my 392.

Here is a video the shop made: (best. song. ever.)

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7078479891364285742

Big thanks to @Mrtintsd for helping me figuring this all out, thanks buddy!

Did you have the paint corrected first? Removing any swirls or imperfections in the paint before sealing it away for 10 years?

Turboencabulator · Mar 27, 2022

jandersendo said:
Did you have the paint corrected first? Removing any swirls or imperfections in the paint before sealing it away for 10 years?

Yes. They did a full paint correction, mostly needed polish but some small blemishes/scratches needed compounding to fix them. He finished with Sonax Perfect Finish P2000 grit. It is funny that from the factory there are already scratches, it comes "pre-scratched" to make it "Trail Ready"

Honestly the PPF on the front grill will probably never make it 10 years, I may replace it based on wear much sooner (3 years?), while the tailgate may last over 10+ years, but that's the cool thing about PPF, you can replace high wear areas as needed. I have done a fair bit of automotive and aircraft painting and it is very difficult to color match an existing paint, especially as it fades and the color code is no longer useful. Heck Jeep can't even make parts match from the factory! Just look at the issues guys have had with firewalls, half doors, and other stuff not matching on a brand NEW Jeep. PPF replacement is much easier and cheaper that repainting.

KungFu392 · Jun 8, 2022

Turboencabulator said:
Wrapping the whole vehicle was $6327 total for prep, PPF, ceramic, and tax and included wrapping my extra set 4 half doors.

But I kinda want to do it too. It's like putting a hermetic seal on your prized posession while still being able to enjoy it! If I do that and replace the factory leather with Katzkins (and seal the factory leather in a vacuum sealed wedding dress box), I can almost keep the whole Jeep (aesthetically) "new" and untouched without having to keep it in the garage! Win-Win!

dog · Jun 8, 2022

Looks insanely good. If I were *slightly* more flush with cash, this would be the first thing I did. As it stands, I'm gonna have to drive it from PA to CA first, and I'm gonna feel slightly lean in the wallet department the whole way home. But man, what a beautiful effect it gives the paint, too!

I always look forward to @Turboencabulator posts, thanks for the update!!

Dral97 · Jun 9, 2022

Thanks for the write up!

Now we just need that windshield header conversion write up.

Turboencabulator · Jun 9, 2022

KungFu392 said:
But I kinda want to do it too. It's like putting a hermetic seal on your prized posession while still being able to enjoy it! If I do that and replace the factory leather with Katzkins (and seal the factory leather in a vacuum sealed wedding dress box), I can almost keep the whole Jeep (aesthetically) "new" and untouched without having to keep it in the garage! Win-Win!

My thinking exactly.

I took pics of everything that came on my 392, kept all the bits and bobs and put it all in a plastic bin in the basement (kinda a time capsule). Then I had the paint protected with STEK PPF then Ceramic. After that I sprayed the underside (inside the frame also) with Blaster Surface Shield before I even hit 100 mi to prevent corrosion (which was already starting especially on the drivetrain). I swear it came pre-rusted from Toledo

Here are some pictures of the results. Don't let appearances fool you, dirty and oily is perfect! It's kinda like a cast iron pan, just keep it coated and it won't rust. I didn't spray the exhaust, I am still formulating a plan to protect that bit.

Just to backup that this method works here's my "test plate" of sheet steel that I used just Blaster Surface Shield on the right, no paint, nothing else except good ol' road grime. After 6 months of exposure I wiped off a few spots and there you can see shiny steel. Even the painted area in the middle has some rust specks, the Fluid Film is on the left side and did not work at all

. By the way you can get Blaster Surface Shield at Harbor Freight.
On interior panels like the doors, inside the rocker panels, etc. where I wanted a thin film of protection I used Boeshield T-9. It will not clog any of the weep holes and it is very low viscosity (kinda like WD-40 in terms of flow). We use it in aviation to protect internal panels so I am doing the same on my 392. My crew chief buddy swears by this stuff so I'm sure it works.

dog said:
Looks insanely good. If I were *slightly* more flush with cash, this would be the first thing I did. As it stands, I'm gonna have to drive it from PA to CA first, and I'm gonna feel slightly lean in the wallet department the whole way home. But man, what a beautiful effect it gives the paint, too!

I always look forward to @Turboencabulator posts, thanks for the update!!

Thanks @dog ! I don't have a ton of cash either so I debated a heck of a lot about spending that much on PPF. In the end the fact that you don't have to worry about swirl marks, or rock chips, or salt made it worth it to me. I did have a problem with it, its not all unicorns and rainbows. I had the area where the fenders drop to clear the hood latches peel up on both sides

This is where the PPF installer makes all the difference. Brian set aside some time for the next day. I removed the hood latches, then he cut along the fender ridge then cut a new piece to fill in that whole area, its practically invisible to see the seam. I was super impressed.

Screen Shot 2022-06-09 at 1.52.01 PM.png

He had also added PPF to the sill area when I decided I didn't want to install the Jeep Wrangler aftermarket door sill guards. Good people make all the difference. I hope if you end up doing it you find a great shop in Cali

. If anyone is in Ohio and looking for PPF shop - B Precise auto detailing has been great!

Dral97 said:
Thanks for the write up!

Now we just need that windshield header conversion write up.

I know, I know.... Waiting to do a complete review with the SOT top stored and the soft top and half doors installed. I will definitely write it up when I do.

A couple other updates on my daily driver 392:

I added a pneumatic locking hood system from Lasfit (www.lasfit.com) that uses the key or door locks to trigger it, I will write a full review on that.
I added the Redline hood lifts (www.redlinetuning.com) which makes showing off at that beautiful V8 Hemi a lot easier.
I added some Trim-Lok rubber tubing along the fender/body seam to keep rocks/debris out of there. (www.amazon.com)

Screen Shot 2022-06-09 at 2.31.28 PM.png

And the Jeep got named "Trigger"... but sadly still no luck on locating a used Turbo encabulator;

must be on back order.

thexr6 · Jun 9, 2022

Turboencabulator said:
My thinking exactly.

I took pics of everything that came on my 392, kept all the bits and bobs and put it all in a plastic bin in the basement (kinda a time capsule). Then I had the paint protected with STEK PPF then Ceramic. After that I sprayed the underside (inside the frame also) with Blaster Surface Shield before I even hit 100 mi to prevent corrosion (which was already starting especially on the drivetrain). I swear it came pre-rusted from Toledo Here are some pictures of the results. Don't let appearances fool you, dirty and oily is perfect! It's kinda like a cast iron pan, just keep it coated and it won't rust. I didn't spray the exhaust, I am still formulating a plan to protect that bit.
View attachment 5392
View attachment 5393
View attachment 5394

Just to backup that this method works here's my "test plate" of sheet steel that I used just Blaster Surface Shield on the right, no paint, nothing else except good ol' road grime. After 6 months of exposure I wiped off a few spots and there you can see shiny steel. Even the painted area in the middle has some rust specks, the Fluid Film is on the left side and did not work at all . By the way you can get Blaster Surface Shield at Harbor Freight.
On interior panels like the doors, inside the rocker panels, etc. where I wanted a thin film of protection I used Boeshield T-9. It will not clog any of the weep holes and it is very low viscosity (kinda like WD-40 in terms of flow). We use it in aviation to protect internal panels so I am doing the same on my 392. My crew chief buddy swears by this stuff so I'm sure it works.
View attachment 5395

Thanks @dog ! I don't have a ton of cash either so I debated a heck of a lot about spending that much on PPF. In the end the fact that you don't have to worry about swirl marks, or rock chips, or salt made it worth it to me. I did have a problem with it, its not all unicorns and rainbows. I had the area where the fenders drop to clear the hood latches peel up on both sides
This is where the PPF installer makes all the difference. Brian set aside some time for the next day. I removed the hood latches, then he cut along the fender ridge then cut a new piece to fill in that whole area, its practically invisible to see the seam. I was super impressed.
View attachment 5396
He had also added PPF to the sill area when I decided I didn't want to install the Jeep Wrangler aftermarket door sill guards. Good people make all the difference. I hope if you end up doing it you find a great shop in Cali . If anyone is in Ohio and looking for PPF shop - B Precise auto detailing has been great!

I know, I know.... Waiting to do a complete review with the SOT top stored and the soft top and half doors installed. I will definitely write it up when I do.

A couple other updates on my daily driver 392:

I added a pneumatic locking hood system from Lasfit (www.lasfit.com) that uses the key or door locks to trigger it, I will write a full review on that.

I added the Redline hood lifts (www.redlinetuning.com) which makes showing off at that beautiful V8 Hemi a lot easier.

I added some Trim-Lok rubber tubing along the fender/body seam to keep rocks/debris out of there. (www.amazon.com)

View attachment 5397

And the Jeep got named "Trigger"... but sadly still no luck on locating a used Turbo encabulator; must be on back order.

As always, awesome right up! In your opinion, and semi arid climates, still a good idea to use a PB blaster? And thanks for the tip on lasfit - ordered.

Stealth7 · Jun 9, 2022

Great write up!

Just to supplement your experience, here are my observations as I just finish this process with my 392:

1. Your prices are good. I forget where you are located, but our California prices are generally more.

2. My "good guy" price at my local expert PPF/the detailing shop was$4400 cash for the following: (a) STEK super duper PPF on the entire front of the 392, front window frame, front and rear fenders and the entire top/roof (this vehicle will be parked out); (b) removal/replacement of all emblems and decals before application of PPF; (c) full window tint including the windshield; and (d) installation of the stress tubing on the inner rear fender edges to prevent collection of road pebbles. This place does good work and had several for Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches, etc. on hand. I asked about paint correction and they felt that there really was no need. There were a few minor paint defects, but these are inherent in any factory produced vehicle. Hydro Blue Pearl is probably a relatively easier color vs. black, etc. I have a black car arriving in about a month and this may require some correction.

3. I also have N-Fab Podium Steps, RokBlocker Front and rear XL Flaps, a front Maximus Bar and Baja Designs LP6 Lights (just waiting on the lights) to install.

At 200 miles so far, the 392 is a lot of fun!

Turboencabulator · Jun 9, 2022

thexr6 said:
As always, awesome right up! In your opinion, and semi arid climates, still a good idea to use a PB blaster? And thanks for the tip on lasfit - ordered.

If I was still based in Phoenix or Vegas, I don't think I would have been in any hurry to do the Blaster Surface Shield. Without much moisture rust basically slows to a crawl. I would probably do it eventually just to give it some long term protection especially if I plan on going to the mountains.

For me in the rust belt it was important to do it before the rust started to take hold and do real damage.

Earl 392 · Jan 28, 2023

Turboencabulator said:
My thinking exactly.

I took pics of everything that came on my 392, kept all the bits and bobs and put it all in a plastic bin in the basement (kinda a time capsule). Then I had the paint protected with STEK PPF then Ceramic. After that I sprayed the underside (inside the frame also) with Blaster Surface Shield before I even hit 100 mi to prevent corrosion (which was already starting especially on the drivetrain). I swear it came pre-rusted from Toledo Here are some pictures of the results. Don't let appearances fool you, dirty and oily is perfect! It's kinda like a cast iron pan, just keep it coated and it won't rust. I didn't spray the exhaust, I am still formulating a plan to protect that bit.
View attachment 5392
View attachment 5393
View attachment 5394

Just to backup that this method works here's my "test plate" of sheet steel that I used just Blaster Surface Shield on the right, no paint, nothing else except good ol' road grime. After 6 months of exposure I wiped off a few spots and there you can see shiny steel. Even the painted area in the middle has some rust specks, the Fluid Film is on the left side and did not work at all . By the way you can get Blaster Surface Shield at Harbor Freight.
On interior panels like the doors, inside the rocker panels, etc. where I wanted a thin film of protection I used Boeshield T-9. It will not clog any of the weep holes and it is very low viscosity (kinda like WD-40 in terms of flow). We use it in aviation to protect internal panels so I am doing the same on my 392. My crew chief buddy swears by this stuff so I'm sure it works.
View attachment 5395

Thanks @dog ! I don't have a ton of cash either so I debated a heck of a lot about spending that much on PPF. In the end the fact that you don't have to worry about swirl marks, or rock chips, or salt made it worth it to me. I did have a problem with it, its not all unicorns and rainbows. I had the area where the fenders drop to clear the hood latches peel up on both sides
This is where the PPF installer makes all the difference. Brian set aside some time for the next day. I removed the hood latches, then he cut along the fender ridge then cut a new piece to fill in that whole area, its practically invisible to see the seam. I was super impressed.
View attachment 5396
He had also added PPF to the sill area when I decided I didn't want to install the Jeep Wrangler aftermarket door sill guards. Good people make all the difference. I hope if you end up doing it you find a great shop in Cali . If anyone is in Ohio and looking for PPF shop - B Precise auto detailing has been great!

I know, I know.... Waiting to do a complete review with the SOT top stored and the soft top and half doors installed. I will definitely write it up when I do.

A couple other updates on my daily driver 392:

I added a pneumatic locking hood system from Lasfit (www.lasfit.com) that uses the key or door locks to trigger it, I will write a full review on that.

I added the Redline hood lifts (www.redlinetuning.com) which makes showing off at that beautiful V8 Hemi a lot easier.

I added some Trim-Lok rubber tubing along the fender/body seam to keep rocks/debris out of there. (www.amazon.com)

View attachment 5397

And the Jeep got named "Trigger"... but sadly still no luck on locating a used Turbo encabulator; must be on back order.

How many feet of tubing did you order? Hollow or closed cell? What you did is brilliant those fenders fill up with small rocks an grind away

guarnibl · Feb 1, 2023

Man ya'll have some good deals on PPF. Full PPF including paint correction, half doors, full doors, tint, including bulk sheeting, etc was very expensive. I found another place and did the front+tint and it was $4k -- granted tint was $1k of it. That said, it was extremely clean of an install. Prices went through the roof here during pandemic. My entire Gladiator is PPF'd and it was $6k.

Turboencabulator · Feb 5, 2023

Earl 392 said:
How many feet of tubing did you order? Hollow or closed cell? What you did is brilliant those fenders fill up with small rocks an grind away

25 feet.

So far it is working perfectly. No rocks or leaves or other junk getting caught in there after a year. I left a good 6" overhang on both ends so I could pull it into the pinch point on the fender then tuck it under the inside. Especially on the front of the front fender to keep it tucked down. I ended up with about 4 feet left over.

Turboencabulator · Feb 5, 2023

guarnibl said:
Man ya'll have some good deals on PPF. Full PPF including paint correction, half doors, full doors, tint, including bulk sheeting, etc was very expensive. I found another place and did the front+tint and it was $4k -- granted tint was $1k of it. That said, it was extremely clean of an install. Prices went through the roof here during pandemic. My entire Gladiator is PPF'd and it was $6k.

Yeah the guy who owns the PPF shop said he would have to charge more to the next guy to make it work financially. I offered to square it up, he said it was ok, he just estimated low.

UPDATE
I love having the PPF. Easy to maintain, no swirls, and easy to let it get dirty without worrying about destroying the paint job. I took all the stuff off myself including the lights, mirrors, trim, etc. But the PPF guy didn't know the back windows came off so that was silly. Should have removed them so he could have gotten in behind the window. My bad.

The Blaster Surface shield has been a game changer. Lots of salt and junk on the roads, and the underside is perfectly protected. I wiped off a smudge and the frame looks band new under the oil/lanolin/dirt film. I think the the Blaster underbody is more important than the PPF for someone in the rust belt like me. I go around and touch up a few spots but it has worked really well.

I added some .125 thick Urethane x 12" x 18" mud flaps from Susquehanna Motorsports that extend below to protect the lower rocker panel and close the gap between the fender and the running boards. I used two for the front and cut one in half for the back. I used plastic rivets from Harbor Freight to secure them so they don't rust. They should work fine if I swap to the rock sliders for a trip. Here are some pics...